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Talk:Les Enfants Terribles (event)
Hey isn't Solid the one who got the dominant genes and Liquid who got the recessive ones? IIRC, that is explained in MGS1 by Liquid.--ROTS19 20:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC) :Watch after the credits of MGS1, Ocelot explains that Liquid was wrong. You can also see a video of it on the Les Enfants Terribles page -Fantomas 21:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC) ::It only explains who has the superior/inferior genes, not the dominante/recessive genes. These are 2 different concepts - Marcaurelix I'm sure we're going to be getting a lot of questions about this event page, so I wanted to quickly address them here. A lot of this information (specifically about Dr. Clark and Jim Houseman's involvement) comes from the Metal Gear Solid novel written by Raymond Benson. However, it was written with heavy involvement from Hideo Kojima and Ryan Payton, which makes it very close to canon (closer than the Digital Graphic Novel, or things of that nature). As such, I figured the information was worth including. --Fantomas 17:46, 1 June 2008 (UTC) :The Grafic Novel had the involvement of Ashley Wood, who was directly involved with Portable Ops and Peace Walker. And both the Grafic Novel and the Raymond Benson novel contradict things in the game. - Marcaurelix Dominance/Recessiveness - that old chestnut Question about the info from the MGS novel: Why was the US government given the 'recessive' one (i.e. Solid), when the President requested the more 'dominant' one (i.e. Liquid)? Is this a mistake (I know the whole topic can be confusing as hell), or did the president's request just get ignored? Bluerock 16:14, December 4, 2009 (UTC) :You're confusing gene dominance (genes that produce the same phenotype in the organism, whether or not it's allele identical; "the dominant gene is for brown eyes") with genetic superiority. For example, the genes for brown eyes are the dominante genes, where as blue eyes are recessive genes; yet blue eyes are considered "superior", since they are the desired trait. - Marcaurelix ::Yes I know all about the recessive/dominance science. My point was that the President wanted the "stronger" one for America (which HE assumed to be the one expressing dominant soldier genes, i.e. Liquid). However, America ended up with the Solid, the one designed to express recessive soldier genes (and what THEY believed to be the weaker one). Therefore, America actually got the one that it didn't want and I was just wondering why this was. --Bluerock 12:28, April 17, 2010 (UTC) ::::Yeah, I was actually wondering about that too. I guess that might have been a very early hint at the inherent corruption and power-hungriness (sp?) of the Patriots. Weedle McHairybug 12:31, April 17, 2010 (UTC) :::::And, arguably, stupidity... because they apparently don't know the semantic and genetic diference between "dominance" and "superiority." Either that, or it's just one of Hideo's retcons. - Marcaurelix ::::::Well, Nixon definitely didn't, but Para-Medic seemed to know the difference when she said "someone who has the dominant traits isn't necessarily the strongest." Weedle McHairybug 12:56, April 17, 2010 (UTC) Marcaurelix :Yeah, just chalk it up to 1970's scientific understanding on the part of Nixon. Maybe the Patriots themselves knew better. --Bluerock 12:59, April 17, 2010 (UTC) Also, Marceau, I would just ignore the whole eye color thing if I was you, as there are several reason why this would likely be irrelevant. Firstly, the project's aim was to modify "soldier" genes only, NOT every gene in the human genome (otherwise one of the clones would have ended up with all sorts of recessive-gene related diseases). Therefore, would a specific eye color really have been seen as advantageous for a soldier? Secondly, if it even was considered one of the soldier genes, then surely brown/green eye color would be more desired, since blue eyes are a lot more sensitive to light and can't block out UV as well (as there is little to no pigmentation/melanin). --Bluerock 12:59, April 17, 2010 (UTC) ::You're right. But I was just giving an example (possibly a rather poor example). Since I don't know any of the "soldier genes", I didn't mention them directly. - Marcaurelix :::That's a mystery. We have to ask Hideo Kojima personally about that. - Marcaurelix Ok, we should ask him. Marcaurelix, where do you live? I'm asking because of the Peace Walker World Tour, and if where you live is either in or at least in close proximity to the cities that Hideo Kojima will visit during that world tour, and assuming it hasn't already passed by, you could ask him there. Weedle McHairybug 12:37, April 17, 2010 (UTC) ::I live in Galicia, Spain. I don't know if Hideo will pass through here. - Marcaurelix :::Well, sorry to say this, but it isn't. I just checked. Bluerock, looks like you're the only one on here who can do this (I know you live in Britain. Of course, whether you live near London or not, I don't know.). I'd do it myself, but seeing how Dunwoody is nowhere near New York City and Los Angeles, as well as the fact that I'm most likely going to take some courses for the Summer, I'm most likely not going to make it. Weedle McHairybug 12:56, April 17, 2010 (UTC) :::::I doubt I can get there to be honest, but I will look over the details of the tour anyway. --Bluerock 13:36, April 17, 2010 (UTC) ::::If we are going to ask Hideo about our doubts with the plot (for example, who is the "dominant" or "recessive" clone), then we should make a list about the questions (about the doubts with the plot) we should ask him if we ever do meet him. - Marcaurelix ::::::I made a blog post for that specific purpose. Weedle McHairybug 13:16, April 17, 2010 (UTC) 1965? Where does the year 1965 come from? I'm sure that the Patriots only got their hands on Big Boss's DNA sometime after Portable Ops (1970), though I guess the project could have originally been concieved earlier than this. --Bluerock 11:21, April 17, 2010 (UTC) :Because the novelization stated that the Les Enfants Terribles had about nine tries before they successfully created Solid and Liquid Snake. It's also implied that they took nine months before they were born, so that meant that 1965 had to be the year (nine times nine equals eighty-one, after all.). Weedle McHairybug 11:49, April 17, 2010 (UTC) ::Although the novel probably shouldn't be taken at face value, like the MGS Official Mission Handbook, the Grafic Novels, or the Database, since they all contradict many things in the games. Besides, the Patriots didn't exist until 1970. Marcaurelix :::True, but there is also a possibility that the Les Enfants Terribles project was originally a Philosopher's backed project. Plus, we know that Nixon had inherited the Les Enfants Terribles from his predecessor. Heck, the Secretary of Defense even alluded to it possibly being made around that time with the statement of "you know, we could use a unit like FOX in the Army. A person like him to handle our sneaking missions for us." Portable Ops's ending even hinted that the project had also occured around the ending when Ocelot mentioned that he'd help Zero with his project under the condition that Big Boss joins to form the Patriots, so there's definitely more than just the novel to back this up. Weedle McHairybug 12:15, April 17, 2010 (UTC) ::::I agree with you that that may be a possibility , but that's just speculation. Marcaurelix :::::Well, whatever, seeing how the article mentions that Nixon mentioned inheriting the project, anyways, something that would not have been possible in the seventies (Nixon was elected in 1969, approximately 3 years before the LET was even developed), I've changed it back for accuracy's sake. Weedle McHairybug 12:25, April 17, 2010 (UTC) :It is likely the Patriots probably inherited the project from the Philosophers. But, the "soldier like him" statement simply referred to Snake's skills as both a soldier and an agent, not "him" per se. Weedle's previous point also asumes that each experiment lasted exactly nine months (if they failed, they could have been aborted before they reached full term). Also, some experiments may have been running in parallel (i.e. they started the next one before the previous one finished). Therefore, I don't think it should be stated definitively that the project started in the year 1965, since its an assumption. Somewhere in the late 60's is possible though, since Lyndon Johnson was said to have started the project. --Bluerock 12:23, April 17, 2010 (UTC) ::Then we should keep it in the late 1960s. Marcaurelix ::That I can agree on. At least with the late 1960s, it still keeps the whole "Nixon inherited it" aspect from the novel without having to estimate on the date. Why didn't I think of this before? We might need to add in the Behind the Scenes section mentioning that this occured in the novel, as well as stating that a clear starting date was never given. :::I like that idea. Marcaurelix Solidus Snake exact copy? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I recall MGS2 telling us that Solidus was designed to be "perfectly balanced" between Solid and Liquid. That doesn't imply that he was an unaltered duplicate of Big Boss. I might be missing some info, though. Uli Talk 13:51, April 29, 2010 (UTC) :Oh, trust me, he definitely was an exact duplicate in terms of DNA towards Big Boss. This was also the reason why he was able to access the SOP system. Weedle McHairybug 13:54, April 29, 2010 (UTC) : : I was wondering I've been thinking about this for a while.. how is Solid recesive? he shares all of Big Boss' physical traits, Skin, Hair colour hell even voice (not genetic I don't think).. and Liquid being all dominant, is Blonde...that alone confuses me Zachariah Zuan 20:17, August 5, 2010 (UTC) :I believe its implied that they are actually talking about the expression of recessive/dominant "soldier genes" only, not every gene. --Bluerock 08:21, August 6, 2010 (UTC) :: hmmm okay still abit weird Zachariah Zuan 08:54, August 6, 2010 (UTC) :::Maybe Liquid would have sounded more like Big Boss had he been raised in America and been a heavy smoker (if he wasn't already), like Solid Snake? --Bluerock 12:08, August 6, 2010 (UTC) ::::: doubt it, as you see in 4 Big Boss and Snake have different voices (they're about the same physical age at that point) Zachariah Zuan 12:19, August 6, 2010 (UTC) Merge So is anyone opposed to merging this page with Les Enfants Terribles? They both cover the exact same topic, only the other one is more detailed. --Bluerock (talk) 21:42, May 16, 2013 (UTC) :Well, if it is to be merged, I guess it is to be merged. Let's hope we at least incorporate most of both articles in the merger, though. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 00:11, May 17, 2013 (UTC) ::Well, that is the point of a merge. There doesn't appear to be any reason to keep the two separate. --Bluerock (talk) 08:23, May 17, 2013 (UTC) :::Yes definitely merge them. No point in having two pages on more or less the same thing. --MOB-4-Life (talk) 21:15, May 17, 2013 (UTC) ::No, I don't oppose. They need to merge. Omega Fighter (talk) 14:55, May 18, 2013 (UTC)